Power and its destructive consequences are at the centre of Marco Bellocchio's Vincere, a film that debuted in Cannes last year and makes its way in the British market only now, one year later. Poco male, I would say in Italian, if the UK premiere is in London while I'm in London and hosts as guest speaker Filippo Timi, who played the character of Mussolini in the film.
I recently watched Come Dio comanda (As God Commands), so it's a bit strange to have him in front of me at the Q&A, not handsome but charming, humble and incredibly smart, stuttering but self-ironic ("Have you seen how good I was?", he said pointing back at the screen). So, without further ado, here's what he said after the screening...
Q: At the centre of Vincere there is the character of Ida Dalser. Was her story known before the film in Italy?
F: No, in Italy the story of Ida Dalser was not known at all. Marco was interested in the role of Ida because she is the only female figure who completely opposed to the regime, Mussolini. Then, she gave birth to the first son of Mussolini and it's heartbreaking that he killed them both.
Q: The film also touches upon the Church and its interference with politics.
F: Well, there is still an interference of the Church in politics. Recently, there was a discussion on a law proposal regarding civil partnerships in Parliament and there was an unspoken threat of excommunication by the Vatican for those who would vote in favour of this law proposal.
Q: In this film, we see your character, Mussolini, in a twofold way. We have you on the one hand and the archive footage of the real Mussolini on the other hand. Why is that?
F: Well, you see, one thing is the public figure, another thing is everyday life. Mussolini's look and his body language were definitely enthralling. Think that some women thought to have fallen pregnant because Mussolini had looked at them.
Q: How was it playing the role of Mussolini?
F: It was the most unpleasant role I have ever played. There was also the risk of mimicking, something which Marco didn't want. The trick was to find inside of me something I call "the dark river", an eager yearning for power. And it was complicated. A woman at Cannes asked me if it was hard to enter the role. And it was. But it was even harder to exit the role. You know, after having played for three months the game of absolute power, you go home, to your mom -and you love her, but you want that dinner be served at 8 o'clock! Power is like a drug. I do understand and I pity men who are in power. Power is beautiful but smashes any form of sweetness.
Q: The opening scene is almost a provocation to the viewer. Was it designed like this in the original script?
F: The script was quite specific, but to my eyes it was unintelligible. Bellocchio tends to work on the composition of the frame. For example, in the script he writes "Ida climbs up a window". I couldn't imagine that the window would be 5-metre high with bars. And then images open to other meanings as well.
Q: How did you react when you first watched the movie? Because one thing is to shoot the scenes, another is to watch the final product....
F: To be honest, it was frustrating for me. The first time I watched the film I was instructing myself (laugh). I know that if an actor is good it's because there's a number of people that support him. And then you have to fight your ego, because when you see your face and it's 8-metre high, well...the instinct of saying "That's me" is there.
Q. In this film you also show a human side of Mussolini, one of the key figure in Italian history. Why is that?
F: To be historical, one has to be contemporary. The tragedy is that he was human, he was a human being. And that's also what's interesting. To prepare for this part, I studied a book on narcissism of a French philosopher and he argues that a dictator manages to kill others because he sees them as images instead of human being. And even when he looks at himself in the mirror, a dictator sees himself as an image. This is maybe the worst horror of all: to acknowledge that he was a human being. Evil is human.
Q: Is there any proof of Ida's story?
F: The documents of Ida and Mussolini's wedding were never found. But the documents acknowledging the son were found. Moreover, it was found that Mussolini, while at war, was entitled to send some money to his wife. And he didn't send it to Rachele, his legitimate wife, but to Ida.
Q: What attracted you to this role?
F: First of all, the challenge attracted me. I would have never imagined to play the part of Mussolini. Then it was really interesting to play the roles of father and son. And finally working with Bellocchio, who is one of the bravest man I know.
Q: What about the footage of the real Mussolini? Weren't you afraid of appearing close to the original one?
F: I remember that I raised the issue with Marco and warned him that people would see that I wasn't the same Mussolini they would see in the archive footage. Then Marco looked at me as I was a rookie and said: Look, the Mussolini you play is another Mussolini. It's a Mussolini that has something of what he will become in the gaze, but he's not quite there. Moreover, the movie is told through the point of view of Ida. And it's interesting because when Ida has a relationship with Mussolini you see me. Once she's estranged from him, you see the archive footage.
Q: How was for you playing your own son, who at a certain point imitates his father, who is you anyway?
F: It was a double somersault, from an actorial point of view. I tried all techniques, from Stanislavskij to... It was impossible for me to play the part of my own son, so I took this impossibility and I overlapped it to the frustrated yearning of my character to get closer to his father. And the more I failed, the more despair emerged, which was perfect for the role.
Q: What's the rapport with history in this film?
F: You see, you can't escape the time you live in. Great history is written in history books, but certain events, which are not written in history books, might come down to us and be true. The story of Ida came out because a group of elderly of Ida's own little village told it to a documentarist.
Q: In the end Mussolini abandoned Ida. Do you think there was any love on his part?
F: Mussolini was a tombeur de femme. There's no doubt about this. Apparently, though, Ida helped him financially. I think that at that time for a man it was really strange to accept money from a woman, so I think he loved her. But then she became troublesome, perhaps she was too smart. The woman Mussolini picked for himself was less emancipated than Ida.
Q: Don't you fear that this film might open old wounds?
F: No, I don't think so, considered that Italy today is a rather right leaning country. The story was told in a TV programme in Italy and there were several historians. Some supported that Mussolini was married to Ida, others discredited the story. All agreed that it was true that he had acknowledge his son. Among the guests of this TV programme there was Mussolini's grand-daughter, who is member of Parliament. At a certain point she started saying: "No, it's not true, it's not possible." But the thing is, Marco didn't want to make a documentary. He wanted to tell the story of a woman who fell in love and fought for this love. If this might help the viewer think about what power is, that's the important thing.
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